Clips Nation and Clipperblog continue their tête-à-tête about the state of the franchise. In Part Four, Steve Perrin expands our discussion of glue guys and what the Clippers need from their supporting cast.
Previous entries:
Part One
Part Two
Part Three
To: Kevin Arnovitz
From: Steve Perrin
Date: June 10, 2009
Based on your list of ideal “Glue guys” I think we may have a slightly different definition (which is one of the problems with these imaginary archetypes). Reverse engineering from the guys on your list, I realize that I wouldn’t have included Turkoglu or Odom – which begs the question why? I’m realizing that my own working definition inadvertently requires the “glue guy” to be pretty limited on offense. Obviously, that’s not an advantage per se. I think the difference is that players as talented as Turkoglu get labels like ‘potential all star’ from the media while the Battiers and Bowens have to settle for “glue guy” as a consolation prize – “we recognize that this guy is important, but it goes without saying he’s not a ’star’ in the traditional sense.” No matter.
I said that being limited on offense is not an advantage per se. But in your Tau approach (“To achieve offense you must prepare for defense”), the simple fact of the matter is that there are five guys on the floor, and only one of them has the ball in his hands. In that sense, you could argue that it’s four times more important to be effective WITHOUT the ball on offense – and most of the current Clippers are best with the ball in their hands. There’s a chicken and egg thing going on here – does MDsr have a penchant for running isos, which turns the other players into spectators, or do the limitations of the personnel dictate the Clippers’ style? Regardless we know that the Clippers get very little movement off the ball, they get even less ball movement and their spacing is terrible. (It continually amazes me when NBA teams can’t space the floor properly – how hard can that be?) Your kind of “Glue Guy” (a versatile player with a high basketball IQ) would be a welcome addition. But I’d settle for a guy who knows where to be on offense, can hit an open shot, and understands how to rotate on defense.
But I’m a little concerned at this point that this conversation has gotten stuck in the glue (thank you, I’m here all week).
There’s a pretty natural transition here to a discussion of potential trades. Trevor Ariza for something below the MLE would be a terrific addition to be sure. But other than that, I don’t see a lot of options in free agency. Former Clipper Matt Barnes? Some of my readers have suggested that Mardy Collins is a candidate, and he may be the best option from the current roster, but I hope that we can do better.
So what about all those expensive big guys who play the same positions as the Clippers’ future franchise player? Could Kaman, Camby or Randolph be moved for the type of wing player the team seems to be missing? (I’m going to interject here quickly that if this seems like a Thornton-bashing session, it’s really not. But with franchise cornerstones presumably at the 2 and the 4, and massive amounts of salary tied up at the 1, 4 and 5, and with all of those guys needing the ball at least some, Al is a bad fit as a starter on this team. Conversely, he could be tremendous off the bench, where a talented scorer capable of putting up lots of points in a short amount of time is a valuable asset.)
Here’s my take on trading bigs (which MDsr implied again on Saturday is a real possibility, even a priority). Don’t move Camby this off-season. His value is most likely only going to go up as the trade deadline approaches. Playoff bound teams who feel they need a big to protect the basket in a playoff run, will line up for Camby and his few remaining months of salary in February. The offers are only going to get better. And the worst case is that the team keeps him and his salary drops off the books. He’s also a good mentor to have around for the likes of Griffin and DeAndre Jordan (who’ll suddenly become more important if a big is indeed dealt).
From a basketball standpoint, I’d move Zach Randolph. He’s the most redundant with Griffin (unless Griffin can be a day in day out center in the league). I like the idea of the traditional center Kaman playing the position – call me old-fashioned. Obviously, there’s also the locker room standpoint, which is another reason to move Randolph. But then there’s the financial standpoint, and it becomes tougher (though probably not impossible) to move Zach’s contract.
That leaves Kaman. As I said, I’d rather keep Kaman, but he may be the logical one to move this off-season. His contract doesn’t make him a pariah, and seven-footers with skills remain a pretty limited resource. Wouldn’t Chicago, desperate for a post presence, take the oft-injured and sometimes underachieving Kaman for the oft-injured and sometimes underachieving Luol Deng? We’ve also seen chatter (none of it substantiated, from what I can tell) of Kaman for Kirk Hinrich, Kaman for Tayshaun Prince, and Kaman in a sign-and-trade for Josh Childress (OK, I just made that one up).
At any rate, let’s hope we’re not the only ones who see a surplus of bigs, and a dearth of “Glue guys” and wonder if a swap can be worked out.
20 Responses
Does anyone know if M. PIETRUS will be available? This guy is exactly the glue the Clippers need to begin to rebuild. Tough defensive minded guy that can score. I’d trade Kaman and Thorton for this guy.
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bootstrenf Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 8:37 am
thornton and kaman for pietrus????
not saying pietrus is a bad player, but i think we could probably get a little more for thornton and laman….
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bootstrenf Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 8:45 am
how about gortat and pietrus for thornton and kaman?
gortat is proving to be a very useful backup…..he always plays within his
own abilities and is a good defender to boot…..
he also has very good size…..camby and gortat would be a good combination
at the center position and we would still had deandre to replace camby when he
leaves…..
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John Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
I think Pietrus is a bit over-hyped right now because he’s playing Kobe in the finals. He wasn’t exactly a Team Guy in Golden State, and he’s nearly as bad a passer as Thornton. He’s making a lot of threes in this series but they’re the “only good if he makes it” kind of shots. I’ve we’re going to give up Kaman and Thornton, we’ve gotta get a whole hell of a lot more back than Pietrus and Gortat.
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Posted on June 10th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Surely a premium should be placed on glue guys who also have won a championship, right? Prince immediately leapfrogs anyone else previously mentioned as trade targets (and definitely over the fantasy-medical wonder Gerald Wallace aka Crash).
The Clippers need a glue guy, definitely – but they also need winners who’ve ‘been there’…sorta like how the Nuggets needed Billups…and definitely like how we needed Sam Cassell a few seasons ago.
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D.J. Foster Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Excellent point. If Prince really is available, he should be the top target over the previously mentioned players for exactly that reason.
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Posted on June 10th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Hinrich and Prince are two of the best glue guys in the league next to Shane Battier. Either of those trades makes us smarter and better.
Andrew Bogut. He’s the best glue guy at the 5. In fact, when I think about him I dont see him thriving under Skiles in Milwaukee but rather under Sloan in Utah. He needs a real team in order to become the best player he can be and Milwaukee just hasnt been one for a few seasons.
If Utah would sign and trade Boozer, ship him to Milwaukee for Andrew Bogut that would make both teams better. Utah could also move Andrei Kirilenko to LA Clippers. Milwaukee could send Richard Jefferson to the Clipps and we could send Chris Kaman over to Utah, Zach Randolph to Milwaukee and to make the whole thing work according to the CBA by taking Ronnie Price from Utah. That 3 team trade works financially and addresses each teams needs. But its probably a cold day hell when someone pulls the trigger. In the end each team gets 2 great players at their weakest positions. But AK-47 and Richard Jefferson for the Clippers would be a great combo of 3s, one long defender and one pure shooter. Andrew Bogut and Chris Kaman could combine to be the white twin towers of Salt Lake. And Zach and Carlos could play at the same time because theyd be Eastern Conference.
Its wishful thinking I know, but i had time on my hands and was bored. Sure we’d have 3 SF’s at the end, but any of them is tradeable.
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Posted on June 10th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I agree with Andy. We need a glue guy.
I say we get rid of Kaman. I used to have a lot of faith in that guy and then he stupidly plays for GERMANY in the Olympics. Who knows if his lack of downtime influenced his injury-prone season last year, but it might of.
The guy doesn’t has his head on straight and he’ll never be a leader, but he does have trade value. Ship him out!
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Posted on June 10th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Kaman has been injured for the past 2 years and other teams aren’t sure of him so his stock is low and it’s going to be hard to trade him for Prince, Hinrich, Childress or even R. Jefferson because his stock is down…. Kaman and Thorton is a better package for other teams (I prefer to keep AL as the 6th man, but…….). What title contenders need a big man bad, DALLAS – Dirk loves countryman Kaman so Kaman and Thorton for Josh Howard? I dunno. DETROIT – Sheed probably gone, going after Boozer, Prince would be great for us but they’d need a starting SF so Thorton and Kaman could work. HOUSTON – Yao back-up, 2 bigs to counter Gasol and Bynum – sign and trade Artest please (i’m dreaming, i know). CHICAGO – Deng plays similar to Al and is injury prone like Kaman plus 5 year contract so no please, and Hinrich is a back-up PG/SG who we don’t NEED but could HELP a lot. CLEVELAND – Kaman fits as a big scorer but not sure who we’d want (Randolph would be perfect to send them). other than that MILWAUKEE wants to trim their money and Kaman and Thorton for R. Jefferson would work for us (but they have Bogut).
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Chris. Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
p.s. I checked and all these trades for Kaman and Thorton work financially under a trade checker.
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Andy Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Yeah, I think Kaman to Dallas makes sense…but you would almost definitely need a third party to make something work for the Clips unless Josh Howard were part of the deal. Frankly, I don’t want him.
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Clipper Derrick Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
I wouldn’t want Josh Howard either.
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Posted on June 10th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Too soon to give up on Thornton. 14th pick, 16ppg 5 rpg, rookie contract, lots of time to develop. He’s a deal sweetener, but I wouldn’t give him up as part of a Kaman salary dump. Seeing the Devin Harris shenanigans really makes me hesitant to see young talent go. Al still has a lot of time to get better and learn to be a star, starter, or a glue guy.
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Chris. Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
I don’t think his defense is there to be the starter or the ‘glue guy’ because he needs the ball, but a great 6th man scoring punch off the bench. I’d prefer to keep him. Milwaukee has made it known they want to dump salary, we could off our 3 expirings (Camby, R. Davis and Skinner) for R. Jefferson.
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Clipper Derrick Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Ooo…. The Camby/Davis/Skinner for Richard Jefferson gave me goosebumps. I’d love to have Jefferson, but how would that effect our cap space for next off season?
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chris. Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
Next season we’d have no space to sign FA’s except the obvious draft pick we will get, but next summer Randolph will be easier to move as an expiring contract (hopefully) and R. Jefferson would also be in the final year of his contract if he doesn’t work out for the coming season. Not the greatest contract summer in 2010 for us, but doub we are playing for the 2010 free agent market, why not try for 2011. If the team is bad again next year which with Dunleavy as coach it may be, then we’d have a new coach but 2 massive expring contracts two work with in 2010 for the 2011 season. I dunno, I know Milwaukee wants to get expirings and it works under the salary cap rules. T. Prince is better and a hometown boy, but Detroit doesn’t seem to be shopping him since they already have so much free cap space this summer to go after Boozer.
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chris. Reply:
June 10th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
sorry, meant if we did the Jefferson trade, next year if we do no trades we will have at least 11.5 million expiring contracts for Camby, R. Davis and B. Skinner (assuming Davis and Skinner take their contracts). More if we don’t pick up Thorton’s option (we will) and Collins.
bongstradamus Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Theres always the option of trading into a higher draft spot for 2010 too if we find we arent able to get the salary cap, or appeal we would need to sign a bonafide FA. For some teams it might make sense to trade off first round draft picks for expiring contracts just to put them into the running for the FA market of 2010. Dumping a pick and buying out a contract might be just enough to offer a deal to someone like Chris Bosh for some bubble teams.
Posted on June 10th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
How old is R. Jefferson, like 32? SLAM reported trade rumors about Zach going to Cleveland. But for who? Mo Williams? Gibson and West? I promise you Kaman has not been working out and reports out of shape. It has happened EVERY season. What about Mike Bibby? Trade Baron for him. God I hate this team. Is there any way to trade the whole team for another whole team? Like OKC. Or the BOBCATS. And I saw Blake Griffin interviewed on Jim Rome’s tv show today. Wow, is this a ball of energy. I thought he was going to nod of in mid sentence. He brushed off his horrible workout by saying, “I don’t think the team is gonna ask me to hit shots from half court.” No, but how about a few FROM TEN FRICKIN’ FEET?!! I have a sick feeling this guy is gonna be a stiff. Like he’s going to average 8 pts per the first season. I also hear there’s a ton of great season tickets available this year.
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Chris. Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Cleveland completely denied the SLAM article and said they aren’t interested. Take it for what it’s worth (the article was about them going after Rasheed Wallace and saying Randolph would be next if they couldn’t get Sheed).
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Posted on June 10th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
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